INTERVIEW WITH JANE ROMAN
DATE: 2 November 1994
Participants: Jane Roman, John Newman, Jefferson Morley.
Transcribed by Mary Bose of the Washington Post on 7 November 1994. Corrected by Jefferson Morley in June 1999. Editors’ notes by Jefferson Morley.
[SIDE A OF TAPE]
NEWMAN: The first time I saw your name in this collection of what I would call the Oswald personality file, um, was actually at Ground Zero in connection with Halloween, you know it was Halloween here two or three days ago, well, Oswald defected on Halloween [ed. note 1959] on Saturday.
ROMAN: Defected?
NEWMAN: Yeah. He went into the American Embassy and …
ROMAN: Oh, oh, oh
NEWMAN: … renounced his citizenship and said he was going to turn over radar secrets and something of special interest and this caused some cables immediately to be sent back to Washington saying the same thing; and alerting the FBI and the CIA and the State Dept. and the Navy.
ROMAN: This was from Mexico?
NEWMAN: No, no, no, this is back in 1959 when he defected.
ROMAN: You mean here in Washington.
NEWMAN: No, he defected in Moscow.
ROMAN: Oh, I see, to our embassy in Moscow.
NEWMAN: Correct. Through them. In other words, defection is a two-part process where …
ROMAN: But he was already in, in Russia?
NEWMAN: Yes.
ROMAN: Yes
NEWMAN: Um, I, the first, that was a Saturday, by the way. And of course, they’re twelve hours or more ahead than the U.S. time so that the news came back on Saturday here. And there were a number of things that were done internally. The FBI had the fingerprints checked, and things like that. And the Navy began searching his records.
At some point, when Monday morning came, and everyone got to their offices and actually looked at this then the wheels started turning inter-agency wise. And you received a phone call on Tuesday from Sam Papich. This [showing the original document] was a document that they released and you’re the one, the CIA liaison person, who took his – it was just a query – wanting to know what the agency had or what you knew about him. Do you remember that telephone call?
ROMAN: No, about Sam Papich we met every day and we were very good friends. Say what you will about the FBI, and many people do, but he was an excellent representative. And I think that [inaudible phrase] more than some people.
NEWMAN: Oh yeah, still today I think researchers and historians find him accessible. And he didn't, he came down on the right side of some of the issues that the Bureau leadership was coming down on the wrong way on over the years. I think he’s getting credit for that.
ROMAN: His name will appear, you know, with –
NEWMAN: Oh Sam Papich is already a household figure, [Roman laughs] it’s the case, believe it or not.
ROMAN: And he’s a great guy.
NEWMAN: And he’s used to it by now. He doesn’t take it wrongly when people come off half-cocked. He’s been very good about giving interviews and doing the best.
ROMAN: We’re still in touch. Occasionally, you know, we go to his house and talk about this and that.
NEWMAN: … So you don’t really remember much about the initial call.
ROMAN: No, I didn't. Every day these calls came in asking for information about this and that …
NEWMAN: Well, so you don’t remember then searching for anything on Oswald when he defected and passing on the answer to the FBI at this point. This is okay not to remember. It’s a long, long time ago. This is not to be raising you anxiety level. I just have to ask these questions because I know that you were involved in some of these personnel actions.
ROMAN: No, I mean – remember that date, that time, that query? No.
NEWMAN: All right. Fair enough.
ROMAN: But it would obviously be routine and appropriate.
NEWMAN: One of the things that bothers everybody about the case is that Oswald was stationed everywhere there was a U-2 program, it was in the Marines.
ROMAN: Oh, really?
NEWMAN: Yes, and in fact, I’ve researched this thoroughly and found out that every place he is on the ground: at Suki, Pyngtong – which is the northern part of Taiwan – there is an air base there, and also at Cubie Point, those are the three places he was. And all three locations we were staging U-2 op, out over the impact areas.
I wondered if you had any knowledge of that program, and if so, do you remember this classification – IDACHESS. This is a U-2 document that’s been released in 1994 which is going to make NSA very unhappy to see it.
ROMAN: This is the highest classification.
NEWMAN: Yes, this is the first time, I have an intelligence background, I think I told you that – 20 years in intelligence.
ROMAN: No.
NEWMAN: Mostly in NSA.
ROMAN: Oh, really.
NEWMAN: so when I saw this document I was amazed.
ROMAN: Did you know, Frank Rowley?
NEWMAN: : I know the name but ---
ROMAN : Before your time.
NEWMAN: Yeah, I actually worked for Gen. Odom when he was director there. I was his military representative. But I had many, many years as an Army guy. In any event, yeah, when I saw this piece of paper, I said that’s NSA material. And there’s this IDACHESS caveat.
ROMAN: I’m not familiar with that. That must be an NSA …
NEWMAN: I believe it must be for the program would have been whatever their material was, this is what they were calling it. OK. Well, do you remember anything about Oswald and the U-2 program?
ROMAN: No.
NEWMAN: For example, when a U-2 was shot down in Russia, did his name come up?
ROMAN: Not to my knowledge, not in my area.
NEWMAN: All right, let me move on, where I don’t get any fish--No fish? Don’t fish there, right?
ROMAN: Right.
NEWMAN: Let me ask you today, from this perspective, when was the first time that you recall having heard about Lee Harvey Oswald and saying something about him? Or hearing somebody saying something to you about him.
Was there a time before the assassination? How far back does it go, really?
ROMAN: I don’t think I ever heard about him before the assassination.
NEWMAN: Well, OK well, we need to refresh your memory on it. [Roman laughs.] I have a few documents today.
ROMAN: I warned you about my memory.
NEWMAN: It’s okay. This is not an interrogation in the sense that you’re supposed to know something that happened back then.
ROMAN: To reassure you, all people my age, apparently – I mean, I say:, "Oh dear, oh dear."
And they say join the club. So that’s what happens to you.
NEWMAN: I wish I had Ann Egeter still alive because she handled more closely those 201; in fact, it was restricted to her when it was open at the end of 1960.
ROMAN: She died.
NEWMAN: Yes, I’ve heard that through many sources. So I’ve given up looking for her. In fact, in fact, I wasn’t sure you were alive. I looked for you for a long time and gave up and it wasn’t until Dick Helms said “I was just on a trip and met her. You must find her.â€
So that’s when I told Jeff I was interested, that I knew you were alive. And I didn’t know he was going to go to all this trouble to find you but he did. So that’s what happened; it was Dick Helms who was at the bottom of this.
ROMAN: Well, he could have told you how to find me.
NEWMAN: Well, he did. He said that he thought I should try New York for some reason. But his memory is also --- [Roman laughs knowingly]
I’m going to have to do a different tack than I intended here because Oswald has a very interesting, almost spectacular, record before the assassination.
ROMAN: Now, something just came back to me that might be pertinent: The Fair Play for Cuba committee ---
NEWMAN: Yes, that would be exactly one of the subjects.
ROMAN: Yeah, some documents may have come through from the FBI.
NEWMAN: I have them today to show you. You can look at those documents.
ROMAN: So you know, that you knew, it may be in that connection. [inaudible]
NEWMAN: So do you remember vaguely something about the FPCC and Oswald?
ROMAN: Oh, yeah.
NEWMAN: I mean, prior to the assassination, of course.
ROMAN: I’m just saying that it’s a possibility, I don’t remember.
NEWMAN: Well, in fact, no, your memory is very good. And I have those documents with me today and I’m going to show them to you. They’re FBI documents. They concern, among other things, his activities for the FPCC and you were, in fact, receipted for them. You have your initials and the date stamped on it. So your recollection is very good on that. Although it may be better to show. In fact, I’m going to do that very shortly, right now.
So you don’t have a recollection, for example, of his departure from Russia and arrival back in the United States, any of that? Coming back on the boat with his wife.
ROMAN: Of course, at this point I know it happened, I know the story. But I can’t really be sure.
NEWMAN: Let me just change up then and let’s go straight to an important point here. To show you Jeff and I have our own copies over here, three documents. Let’s begin with one here, and we’ll take our time with it.
That’s the – let me unfold this bottom part for you – um, this is of course, the standard from 610A routing and record sheet
ROMAN: Right.
NEWMAN: and your copy has the actual document that this was attached to. We don’t but I know what’s in that document so I can talk to you about it.
[crosstalk] This one did not. But Ann Egeter has it here. But you’ll understand the pattern of what I’m doing here. This is an FBI document. And I believe it may even get into, you can look at, it [inaudable] basically covers his early activities after returning to the United States. After he’s off the boat. Let’s see. They've got a physical description of him. Fort Worth, Texas.
Would you characterize this – these are the people who read this FBI report on Oswald. And again, I’d like to emphasize that it is after he came back from the United States [sic he means Soviet Union].This is Sept. 11, 1962, for example when he comes in to RID [ed. Note Records Integration Division]. He goes through all these people, of course that would make sense. They are the Russia Division and counterintelligence folks. Would you --Is that a fairly wide distribution or a significant number of people who were reading?
You handle these things on a daily basis. How would you characterize this many people reading this file?
ROMAN: Well, they’re all very closely connected. I mean, normally [inaudible part] They worked all very closely together.
NEWMAN: What kinds of organizations are we talking about here?
ROMAN: Well, the CI staff I don’t know them too well. [inaudible]
NEWMAN: Special Investigation Group. Birch D. O’Neill was the chief, right?
ROMAN: And they worked very closely on these [inaudible]. Then they took out CII so that was sensible because those were the operations officers who had to deal with operations per se. They were never interested in this kind of thing. The counter-intelligence staff branch with the Soviet Division ---
NEWMAN: To Lt. Bagley, I believe it is by this time. Wasn’t it Pete Bagley, isn’t he SRCI? I think so.
ROMAN: I think so, yeh
NEWMAN: I’ve done a lot of interviews already by the way.
ROMAN: Who have you talked to?
NEWMAN: Well, I talk, in the CI arena, Scottie Miler who was very, very helpful. Birch is too old. He’s 83 and he’s not well. He has a heart problem, so it really, it upsets him to talk about it so I don’t bother him. But he is alive and he is here, close by.
ROMAN: How well is Scottie? He’s in what, North Carolina?
NEWMAN: Yeah. But he’s chipper and well and he’s accessible. If you’re not totally crazy, he’ll talk to you.
ROMAN: And he was a good guy. He was in CI operations, but he was very close, worked very closely with [inaubile].
I’ll bet. And I’ve talked to a lot of people in the Soviet, so some of these names I do know. But I’m interested in what your views are on, on why these people are reading Oswald’s file. Does this ---
ROMAN: The rest of these are Soviet?
NEWMAN: Yeah, the rest of these are, exactly. Until it comes back to CI in the end. See, Ann Egeter has the whole thing charged out to her, so the way I interpret that, you can’t put anything in, you can’t take it out of the 201 without her approval. So, in fact, this was always the MO. You’d see CI at the beginning and the end of these distributions. But I want to ask you frankly, is this, when you look at something like this, all these people and these particular, you know, the CI folks everywhere, and the SR6. This is the Soviet realities branch, Is this the mark of a person’s file who’s dull and uninteresting? Or would you say that we’re looking at somebody who’s ---
ROMAN: No, we’re really trying to zero in on somebody here. I mean ---
NEWMAN: So there is some acreage (?) in this?
ROMAN: Oh, absolutely.
NEWMAN: You would have a very good perception institutionally on that, you see.
ROMAN: Yeah. If somebody went to the Soviet embassy, the American embassy in Moscow and said he wanted to defect – is that was this is all about?
NEWMAN: Actually, this is a little bit later than that. I have some earlier ones, this is what I’m taking you through now, this document and the next two I will show are what he did after he came back and got off the boat. This is one of the initial reports. This is in the fall of 1962, so he’s already done all that, and spent, what, almost two years over there. All of 1960, all of 1961, so it’s more than that. Two and a half years he’s been in Russia, and how he’s back, and he’s doing things, weird things again, writing to the FPCC, writing to The Worker, and this FBI report is detailing those activities.
ROMAN: I see. Well, let me ask you one thing, because … the years [inaudible]… my memory. Had he gone down to Mexico and talked to the Cuban embassy?
NEWMAN: We’re heading in that direction. No, this is a year away. This is September ’62; it’s about a year before that. But the next documents I’m going to show you pertain to that time frame. But I’m very interested in the period of Oswald, U.S.– in other words, his post-Russian period, which is what I call the Cuban period in his life. In any event, you were going to characterize this. We were talking about the level of interest.
ROMAN: I would say that there was some keen counter-intelligence interest in somebody who had returned from Russia and had offered to defect. Then ,of course, he becomes the, not the property of the FBI but the
NEWMAN: The purview, yeah.
ROMAN: But they keep us posted. Well, when did he get in touch with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee ---
[crosstalk] …
NEWMAN: He got back in June of 62 and within two months or so.
ROMAN: Well as I recall it, that would’ve been of keen interest to us, and particularly in the Soviet connection…
NEWMAN: Yes, you have a very large agency operation picking up at this point. Right in the middle of, of course, this Mongoose thing that the Kennedys set up with Lansdale, and we’re cresting into the Cuban missile crisis by this time, so there’s a very great deal of concern on Cuban matters.
ROMAN: What was the date of the Bay of Pigs?
NEWMAN: That’s 1961, April 19th. So it’s a year before this, more than a year before this. In any event, so that would be my interpretation, but I was not a CIA employee, so I couldn’t tell you on a daily basis how many people this is. Just my own sense of my own 20 years in government in intelligence is that this looks to me like a lot of people were interested in this file.
MORLEY: Can I ask just one? On something like this, when you get a file with the next person down on the list, would that be somebody who you were saying, ‘Hey, I think you’ll be interested in this?’ Or was that just you were required to pass it on to the next person on the list?’ What would be the – Ann Egeter had been saying, okay, I think CI ops will be interested in this? Or would CI have just automatically gotten it? Is that a question that can only be answered in specific cases?
ROMAN: Well, I would say this ---
NEWMAN: I could probably answer that question, [Roman laughs] because I’ve asked a number of people about these. It varies. The people in the Records Integration Division for example, often assigned, put suggestions on here. Sometimes they were followed, sometimes they weren’t. Sometimes they would leave a space because they would anticipate people who further down the line would want to add organizations to it.
ROMAN: Right. As I recall, it would be vaguely routed in, I mean, ---
[inaudible]
NEWMAN: But it’s not something that’s sort of religious, a lockstep that you have to follow whatever the first --- Quite often they just check it off or cross it out.
ROMAN: If somebody writes something in.
NEWMAN: I want to move on to the next document. But suffice it to say that we have a great deal, as you said, keen interest, at least at CI apparently, in the man, in his activities since his return to the United States.
ROMAN: Right.
NEWMAN: Okay.
ROMAN: And I would assume that our interest would stem mainly from the Cuban angle because the bureau’s interest, at that time, the bureau’s interest would focus on the Soviet in this country.
NEWMAN: Right exactly, right. And the next document I want to show you is this one. It’s a little bit, it’s cut off at the bottom but its what it is. And now we’re moving ahead almost a year. And the date is September of 1963 – in fact, it is a year later. And the report that we’re talking about here is, these are, these are their actual, the Bureau’s sources in New York where they actually went in, broke in and took pictures of these – we have some of them – of the lists inside the FPCC offices, the mailing lists. They’ve got pictures of Oswald’s letters at the time. The envelopes and so on. So they were really checking out, you know, what he was doing writing to all these – here’s the earlier versions [inaudible] blacked out. But here we’re really talking about where he’s employed at the time and the relations with his wife and family, connections with the Communist party. And here’s a whole appendix on the FPCC – actually from the Chicago office. This was from Dallas. [inaudible] Once you can read these files, it’s very interesting, who’s doing all of this stuff.
But again, we’re talking about basically Cuban activities and so on. And the people who are reading this, it’s a little bit tighter. It’s interesting, and after Records Integration Division, you’ll notice the person who’s at the top of the list, there on 23 September, who signed for this is named, looks to me like it’s Jane Roman.
ROMAN: Right, it is.