Oswald in TSBD Doorway - Dougherty the TSBD Sniper?

[echelon]

I don't know how anyone could identify such a fuzzy and vague image. It's a man, that's about all I can say.

Actually TLR, if you read my post carefully you will see that I was not trying to identify Prayer Man but merely providing evidence that he could not have been Lovelady.

For a better view of Prayer Man himself, look at this much clearer frame from the Darnell film showing him in the doorway just as Marrion Baker runs up the steps:

http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=19&pos=22

In any case, this is really bad control of the patsy by the plotters. What if LHO had decided to stand out on Elm Street and was photographed by a dozen people? No, his handler would have to make sure he stayed in the building, maybe by telling him to wait around the phone in the 1st floor warehouse or something.

These comments are purely speculative and we cannot respond to them in any meaningful way.  Who knows what his handler was supposed to do or what s/he actually did on the day?  Who knows if Oswald did what he was told or else something completely different?  As we've seen many times, a number of things that the conspirators appear to have planned also appear to have gone wrong on that eventful weekend.

All we can do is keep an open mind, look at the accumulated evidence presented by Sean Murphy and his co-posters on that particular thread, and respond to that evidence.

I remain to be convinced but I have to say the evidence thus far is pretty compelling that Prayer Man is, in fact, Oswald.

[TLR]

Sorry, Echelon, I call it as I see it. I don't win any popularity contests that way, but it's the only chance we have of solving the case.

Looking at that enlarged photo in your link, I still don't see how the figure can be identified. Yes, it's most likely not Lovelady. Somewhere I have a list of all the TSBD employees; there were quite a few other white male employees, most of whom we have never seen photos of.

It's not speculation, it's common sense. If you don't maintain at least some control over your patsy, at least until the assassination is carried out, you risk having the whole thing fall apart. What if Oswald didn't show up to work that day? He had to have been told some story to get him to be there at least until the shots were fired. After that, Oswald may have begun to operate on his own, and then things started to go wrong. 

Edit: Ok, having gone through the entire thread, I have to say it's possible that it's Oswald, but not provable one way or the other. I'm not 100% sure that it's a man, either; it could be a small woman with short hair. That's how fuzzy the quality is.

[Redfern]

Lovelady had already left the front steps with Shelley at the time of the frames in question.

Steady.

Lovelady and Prayer Man appear side by side in the Wiegman film, immediately prior to the assassination.

See the attached frame from Robin Unger's site:

www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=13&pos=0

The frames showing Prayer Man are after the assassination.

Gerda Dunckel spotted Lovelady and Shelley walking westwards by the front of the TSBD before Baker arrived.

[Redfern]

I don't know how anyone could identify such a fuzzy and vague image. It's a man, that's about all I can say.

In any case, this is really bad control of the patsy by the plotters. What if LHO had decided to stand out on Elm Street and was photographed by a dozen people? No, his handler would have to make sure he stayed in the building, maybe by telling him to wait around the phone in the 1st floor warehouse or something.

The identification of Oswald as Prayer Man does not essentially rely on the film.

It involves using a process of elimination - we know the movements claimed by TSBD staff, so we know who PM cannot be.

Eventually, we are left with only Oswald.

If someone thinks PM might be someone else, let them come forward and make the case.


As for 'control of the patsy', that's a crucial issue in it's own right which we have to examine if we want to get to the heart of the assassination.

Obviously, if he was standing at the main entrance among fellow workers then Oswald may have felt secure in the expectation that he could not possibly be identified as a sniper. Noticeably, though, he's not exactly 'out in the open'.

My view has verged towards Oswald being a key member of the plot. However, 'Prayer Man' suggests he may only have been tangentially involved and maybe not even involved at all.

Perhaps there was no way to set Oswald up without risking him appearing in photographs or film.

 

[Redfern]

I should point out that I thought Sean Murphy was heading inexorably to a conclusion that Jack Dougherty was the assassin.

I was wrong! 


That said, I have problems with his analysis of events inside the TSBD. He might be right, of course, but it is hard to find a single source who is completely reliable - that very possibly includes Vickie Adams.


Regardless of elevator movements, Marrion Baker's initial affidavit is surely pivotal.

As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.

I don't think MB concocted the story of the man walking away from the stairway.

He had been on duty and had just returned from Love Field to the City Hall. Of course, Oswald was in the same room at the time.

By including a fairly detailed description in his affidavit, is Baker not implicitly questioning Truly's identification of the man as a worker?

In other words, he is uncomfortable with the possibility that he let the assassin escape and does not fully trust Truly.

That's what it reads like to me.

[TLR]

I'm always trying to think like a plotter who has access to Oswald (like say, David Atlee Phillips). If you tell LHO ahead of time that we're going to shoot the President outside the building where you work, what is Oswald going to think? Outside MY workplace? Am I being set up to take the fall? No, you tell him some B.S. story and give him a reason to be hanging around inside at 12:20-12:30.

[Tim Weaver]

The way I see it, maybe LHO was in the 2nd floor lunchroom when the shooting happened.
Isnt that where he said he was?
Then he said he went to see the commotion.
I would say if that picture is him then he was fairly truthful in his movements.

[TLR]

The footage of Prayer Man was taken just a few seconds after the shooting.

Ok, here's a list I made up years ago of all the employees, based on FBI interviews done in 1964. Name/Occupation/location at time of assassination:

Adams, Victoria Elizabeth   Scott-Foresman employee, fourth floor. Did not see LHO on stairs   TSBD, 4th floor window with Dorman, Styles, Garner
Aiken, Haddon Spurgeon   Worked at the N Houston warehouse   
Arce, Danny Garcia   Hispanic Order filler at TSBD   North side of Elm, alone on grassy area in front of TSBD
Arnold, Carolyn (R.E.)   TSBD Secretary. Saw LHO shortly before assassination; she did not return to TSBD after shooting   TSBD, in front with OV Campbell, Dragoo, Bonnie Richley, Virgie Baker, Judy Johnson

Barnum, Virginia H.   McGraw-Hill Publishing; was away at lunch during assassination; returned at 12:40 and could not enter building   
Berry, Jane   Scott-Foresman employee, fourth floor   North side of Elm with Betty Thornton
Burns, Doris Fay   Macmillan Co. employee, third floor   TSBD, third floor hallway
Calvery, Gloria   South Western Publishing Co employee   North side of Elm, halfway between Houston and TU with Carol Reed, Karan Hicks, Karen Westbrook
Campbell, Ochus Virgil   Vice president of the TSBD   On Elm in front of TSBD
Case, Edna   Macmillan Co employee, third floor   TSBD, third floor with Sandra Ellerson
Cason, Jack Charles   President of TSBD, was on Stemmons Freeway at time of assassination   
Caster, Warren   South-Western Publishing Co. District Manager; not at work on 11/22; brought rifles into TSBD on 11/20   
Clay, Billie P. (Mrs Herman N.)   Allyn-Bacon employee, third floor   On Elm west of TSBD with Mary Lea Williams, Georgia Hendrix, Sue Dickerson, Mrs John Hawkins

Davis, Avery (Mrs Charles Thomas Davis)   Scott-Foresman employee, fourth floor   TSBD entrance steps with Judy McCully
Davis, Mrs. Joseph A. (Vickie)   Absent from work on 11/22/1963   
Dean, Ruth   Macmillan Publishing employee, third floor   TSBD front steps with Madie Reese
Dickerson, Mary Sue   Allyn-Bacon Inc employee, third floor   North side of Elm, in front of TSBD with Bille Clay
Dorman, Elsie   Scott-Foresman Co., fourth floor, 57 years old   TSBD, 4th floor with Dorothy Ann Garner, Victoria Adams, Sandra Styles
Dougherty, Jack Edwin   Stock clerk at TSBD   TSBD, 5th floor near elevator alone
Dragoo, Betty Jean   TSBD employee, 2nd floor, 27 years old   On Elm in front of TSBD with Bonnie Richey, Carolyn Arnold, Virgie Baker, Judy Johnson
Elerson, Sandra Sue (Mrs Ronald G.)   Temp working for MacMillan Publishing, third floor   TSBD, third floor window
Foster, Betty Alice   Scott-Foresman clerk   TSBD, 4th floor stockroom with Mary Hollies
Frazier, Buell Wesley   Order filler at TSBD   TSBD, front steps with William Shelley, Lovelady
Garner, Dorothy Ann   Scott-Foresman employee, fourth floor   TSBD, 4th floor (5th window from east end) with Elsie Dorman, Victoria Adams, Sandra Styles
Givens, Charles Douglas   Black wrapper/order filler at TSBD   Corner of Record and Elm St.

Hendrix, Georgia Ruth   Allyn-Bacon employee, third floor   On Elm St, 150ft west of TSBD with Mary Lee Williams, Herman Clay, Sue Dickerson, Mrs John Hawkins

Hicks, Karan (Mrs James Daniel)   South-Western Publishing, second floor   North side of Elm, halfway between TSBD and TU with Glory Calvery, Carol Reed, Karen Westbrook

Hine, Geneva L.   Credit Desk, TSBD   TSBD, second floor alone
Hollies, Mary Madeline   Scott-Foresman employee, fourth floor   TSBD, Fourth floor window with Alice Foster
Holt, Gloria Jeannie   Clerk in billing dept, TSBD since July 1963   South side of Elm with Jacob, Mrs Nelson (Sharon Simmons)
Hopson, Yola D.   Scott-Foresman employee, fourth floor   TSBD, Fourth floor middle window with Ruth Nelson
Hughes, Carol   South Western Publishing employee, 2nd floor   TSBD, Second floor window alone
Jacob, Stella   Billing dept typist, TSBD since July 1963   South side of Elm (with Sharon Simmons [Mrs Nelson], Jeanne Holt)
Jarman, James Earl "Junior"   Black checker at TSBD   TSBD, Fifth floor window
Johnson, Judy Marie   TSBD employee on 2nd floor. Did not return to TSBD after shooting   SW corner of Elm and Houston with Holt, Jacob, Richey, Carolyn Arnold, Betty Dragoo.
Jones, Carl Edward   Black order filler at TSBD   TSBD, front steps w/Roy Truly, Campbell, Reid, Lovelady
Jones, Spaulden Earnest   Manager of MacMillan Co., at a restaurant at time of assassination   
Junker, Herbert L.   MacMillan Co. employee, at a restaurant at time of assassination   
Kaiser, Frankie   Absent from work on 11/22/1963; found a clip supposedly belonged to LHO   
Kounas, Dolores Arlene   McGraw-Hill Publishing employee, third floor   Elm & Houston SW corner with Roberta Parker and Lloyd Viles
Lawrence, Patricia Ann   MacMillan Co. employee   North side of Elm in front of TSBD with Lucy Whitaker
Lewis, Roy Edward   Black warehouse worker   TSBD, front entrance by himself
Lovelady, Billy Nolan   Stock clerk, first floor, probably man seen in doorway in Altgens photo   TSBD, front steps (with William Shelley, Sarah Stanton)
Lovelady, Dottie   Absent from work on 11/22/1963   
McCulley, Judith Louise   Scott-Foresman employee, fourth floor   TSBD, front steps with Mrs Charles Davis
Molina, Joe R.   Credit Manager at TSBD, second floor   TSBD, front steps with Otis Williams and Pauline Sanders
Nelson, Ruth Smith   Scott-Foresman employee, fourth floor   TSBD, Fourth floor window, east side with Yola Hopson
Nelson, Sharon   Clerk, TSBD   On Elm St halfway between TU and TSBD, with Holt and Jacob
Norman, Harold Dean   Warehouse worker   TSBD, Fifth floor window (with Williams and Jarman)
Palmer, Helen L.   McGraw-Hill Book Co. employee, third floor; not at work on 11/22   
Parker, Roberta   McGraw-Hill employee, third floor   Across street from TSBD w/Delores Kounas, Lloyd Viles
Piper, Eddie   Black janitor at TSBD            TSBD, First floor window
Rachley, Virgie (Mrs Donald Baker)   A clerk at the TSBD, second floor   In front of TSBD entrance with Dragoo, Carolyn Arnold, Judy Johnson, Bonnie Richey
Reed, Carol   Southwestern Publishing employee   Elm Street halfway between TU and TSBD (w/Karan Hicks, Karen Westbrook, Gloria Calvery)
Reed, Martha   Biller, TSBD   North side of Elm, between Record and Houston Sts
Reese, Madie Belle   MacMillan employee, third floor   TSBD, front steps (w/Ruth Dean)
Reid, Mrs. Robert A.   Clerical supervisor, TSBD   TSBD, front entrance (with Roy Truly and Ochus Campbell)
Richey, Bonnie   Secretary, TSBD   In front of TSBD (w/Ochus Campbell, Carolyn Arnold, Virgie Baker, Betty Dragoo, Judy Johnson)
Sanders, Pauline   Clerk-accountant, TSBD, second floor   TSBD, front entrance (w/Sarah Stanton)
Shelley, William H.   37 years old, Oswald's supervisor   TSBD, front entrance (Billy Lovelady in front of him, also near Frazier, Sarah Stanton and Carolyn Arnold)
Shields, Edward    Black shipping clerk at N. Houston warehouse   On Main St with Charles Givens and James Lacy (in front of Mullendore's Cafeteria, 601 Main St.)
Smith, Gordon   Not interviewed by FBI   
Springer, Pearl   Cutting room of TSBD?   Close to SE corner of Elm & Houston
Stansbery, Joyce Maurine   American Book Co., third floor   North side of Elm
Stanton, Sarah D.   Clerk, TSBD   TSBD, front entrance (w/William Shelley, Otis Williams, R.E. Sanders, Billy Lovelady)
Styles, Sandra K.   Scott-Foresman employee, fourth floor   TSBD, 4th floor window (w/Dorothy Garner, Elsie Dorman, Victoria Adams)
Thornton, Betty Jean   Scott-Foresman employee, fourth floor   In front of TSBD (with Jane Berry)
Truly, Roy Sansom   Superintendent TSBD          TSBD, front entrance (with Ochus Campbell)
Viles, Lloyd R.   McGraw-Hill Co., third floor   Across street from TSBD (w/Dolores Kounas and Roberta Parker)
West, Troy Eugene   Black wrapper, TSBD             First floor TSBD (did not witness)
Westbrook, Karen   South Western Publishing employee, 2nd floor   North side of Elm halfway between TSBD and TU (w/Gloria Calvery, Carol Reed, Karan Hicks)
Wester, Franklin Emmett   Stockman at North Houston warehouse since 1/1963; saw Frazier morning of 11/22/63   
Whatley, Vida Lee   Lyons and Carnahan Publishing secretary, was shopping on Elm St, did not witness assassination   
Whitaker, Lucy (Lupe)   Stenographer, MacMillan Co, TSBD   Elm Street, north side in front of TSBD (w/Patricia Ann Lawrence)
Williams, Bonnie Ray   Black checker, TSBD since Sept 1963   TSBD, fifth floor window (with Norman and Jarman)
Williams, Mary Lee   Allyn and Bacon employee, third floor   North side of Elm, just west of TSBD (w/ Sue Dickerson, Billie Clay, Ruth Hendrix. Mrs John Hawkins and son)
Williams, Otis Neville   Bookkeeping supervisor, TSBD       Front steps TSBD
Wilson, Steven F.   Vice President of SW division of Allyn and Bacon, third floor   TSBD, 3rd floor window

[echelon]

The frames showing Prayer Man are after the assassination.

We really do have to stop bickering over this point.

The Wiegman frames showing Prayer Man are DURING and/or immediately AFTER the assassination, a few seconds only AFTER.  They show a very indistinct image of Prayer Man standing to the rear of Lovelady thus precluding this latter gentleman from being said Prayer Man.  That is the point I was making.

The Darnell frames (and others) do show a much better image of Prayer Man a few minutes AFTER the assassination, as you keep stressing.  Lovelady has by then moved away from the stairs.  But no matter where he was standing he still could not be Prayer Man.

[echelon]

The footage of Prayer Man was taken just a few seconds after the shooting.

Ok, here's a list I made up years ago of all the employees, based on FBI interviews done in 1964. Name/Occupation/location at time of assassination:

Adams, Victoria Elizabeth   Scott-Foresman employee, fourth floor. Did not see LHO on stairs   TSBD, 4th floor window with Dorman, Styles, Garner
Aiken, Haddon Spurgeon   Worked at the N Houston warehouse   
Arce, Danny Garcia   Hispanic Order filler at TSBD   North side of Elm, alone on grassy area in front of TSBD
Arnold, Carolyn (R.E.)   TSBD Secretary. Saw LHO shortly before assassination; she did not return to TSBD after shooting   TSBD, in front with OV Campbell, Dragoo, Bonnie Richley, Virgie Baker, Judy Johnson

[...]

Williams, Mary Lee   Allyn and Bacon employee, third floor   North side of Elm, just west of TSBD (w/ Sue Dickerson, Billie Clay, Ruth Hendrix. Mrs John Hawkins and son)
Williams, Otis Neville   Bookkeeping supervisor, TSBD       Front steps TSBD
Wilson, Steven F.   Vice President of SW division of Allyn and Bacon, third floor   TSBD, 3rd floor window

OK, now remove all female staff, all staff not in attendance that day, and all African American males from this list.

[Kelly]

Thanks TLR for the list of people. I think that it would be great if each and every one of us could figure this out in our own minds to the best of our own ability to reason. I`m on the fence still yet, but this topic has piqued my interest so much and I like to see everyones` input concerning this. I will study this matter more this weekend. This is the most interesting topic I`ve seen in awhile.

[TLR]

The Darnell film looks to me like it was taken while he was in the motorcade, coming around the corner, which is just moments after the shots were fired.

I can't be 100% sure the person isn't a woman. We can't see the bottom half (skirt or pants?) and all we see of the top half is an arm, a dark top and the outline of a white head. Some women have very thin, short hair.

[Redfern]

The way I see it, maybe LHO was in the 2nd floor lunchroom when the shooting happened.
Isnt that where he said he was?
Then he said he went to see the commotion.
I would say if that picture is him then he was fairly truthful in his movements.

Oswald never said he was in the second floor lunchroom.

There would have been nowhere near enough time to reach the steps in any case.




According to Bookhout's notes, Oswald said he was 'out with Bill Shelley in front'.

The preceding text says he had a second floor coke when officer (i.e., Baker) came into first floor.

[Mitz]

Personally, I think Sean has put a pretty strong case together.

Is it Oswald?

I don't know.

But I believe it could be.

[tighud4]

Personally, I think Sean has put a pretty strong case together.

Is it Oswald?

I don't know.

But I believe it could be.

agreed its possible that it could be oswald.its also poss that it is not.