The continue... the nearing of Sherry's "triangle"

[YellowBirch1]

With forensic evidence in hand that the headshot @ z313 came from within a "triangle" perimeter the south knoll direction of Dealey Plaza and the story told to me that Roger Craig described a drain located at the south end of the concrete section of the triple overpass, I bring further evidence of obfuscation regarding this matter.

Some of you may remember I posted shortly after the release of Sherry's book, a story told to me a year before the book became public, an aspect of a conversation I had when, for the first ever attempted by anyone, a timeline of the movements of Roger Craig through Dealey Plaza from a starting point where he stood on Houston Street when the shots began. I saw this timeline as an important part of a better understanding of November22, 1963 because Roger Craig saw and investigated many things, not only within Dealey Plaza but also in the area of the parking lot above and behind the Grassy knoll, detention of a Chevrolet exiting this parking lot on Elm Street Extention shortly after the shooting, observations within the TSBD which began with entrance into the building with DPD Mooney before 1pm and several other events there after and all aspects of conversations with and the meeting he had with DPD Will Fritz at the DPD police station. I believe, based upon many years of studying this case that no other man could tell have told us more about this critical time period than Roger Craig.

It becomes necessary, because of all the controversy that surrounded this man, to get a better understanding of whether he was truthful in the things he said or was there obfuscation relating to his words and what he told as a further to cover up the possibility of a conspiracy regarding the larger whole of this case itself. Based upon my long study of this case and the intersection of other information relating also to time and the documentation as we know it today, there is something quite wrong. I believe he was an honest man. This leads me to believe other information not directly told or had been placed into record, several events were not actually as they occurred or were on that day.

As an example of this, I persued thought of the story told to me regarding Roger Craig's knowledge of a drainage system under and past the south side of the triple overpass which could be a possible place for a well concealed, with safe exit from and excellent shot at the motorcade as it came down Elm Street through Dealey Plaza. He told of a storm drain with great vantage that offered plenty of room to take aim, shoot without notice and escape from through a tunnel big enough for a man to walk those exit was into an area to the southwest, not near Commerce Street.

I offer today comparison through two photos. The top photo is from the Cancellare, cropped and shows the area I circled originally in red that I placed in a previous thread to this forum. Below it is a picture taken from standing above that area, looking down on to the concrete with the grass of the south knoll below it. It is very clear that concrete has been used to fill a rectangular area, small in dimension. I submit to all, this area was originally the drain that Roger Craig spoke of and is in the same exact location related it to me two years ago. I will also offer to you that I have not been to Dallas but one time and absolutely not within the last two years.


So, what do we have here? Should this be further examined? Should we question photography and schematics offered as existence that this drain never existed and that Roger Craig is a liar?

[David C]

Wow,

I for one have never considered a drain on that side of the bridge.

When I walked the plaza I never made it over to that side as most of my attention was directed to the grassy knoll position.
 
Now there is also a drain on the other side of the bridge which was a point of speculation, but the shooter would have been in plain sight of people standing on the bridge, and the fence in front of the the drain did not show any holes, given the pictures of that area right after the shooting, missing slats, etc. where one could stick his gun through. I have an old newpaper someone was handing out down there showing this position and discussing the sewer system below Dealy Plaza.

I have found no reason to not believe Roger Craig, and I speculate that the person who shot him in the head, did not either.

[echelon]

With forensic evidence in hand that the headshot @ z313 came from within a "triangle" perimeter the south knoll direction of Dealey Plaza and the story told to me that Roger Craig described a drain located at the south end of the concrete section of the triple overpass, I bring further evidence of obfuscation regarding this matter.

Some of you may remember I posted shortly after the release of Sherry's book, a story told to me a year before the book became public, an aspect of a conversation I had when, for the first ever attempted by anyone, a timeline of the movements of Roger Craig through Dealey Plaza from a starting point where he stood on Houston Street when the shots began.

[...]

As an example of this, I persued thought of the story told to me regarding Roger Craig's knowledge of a drainage system under and past the south side of the triple overpass which could be a possible place for a well concealed, with safe exit from and excellent shot at the motorcade as it came down Elm Street through Dealey Plaza. He told of a storm drain with great vantage that offered plenty of room to take aim, shoot without notice and escape from through a tunnel big enough for a man to walk those exit was into an area to the southwest, not near Commerce Street.

Umm.

It's very difficult to respond effectively to a post such as this, given that there is so much "he said/she said" going on.  Do we presume that the "I" and "me" referred to above is you, YB?  If not, please provide a citation.  If so, there would be (at least) three further pieces of information we would need to have a meaningful follow-up discussion on the points you raise:

1.  Who is this other person who told you the information and how did this exchange of information take place?

2.  How did this other person obtain the information in the first place?

3.  Are there any other corroborating sources (i.e. documents, affidavits, witness statements, maps of DP) that can lend validation and credence to the information being offered?

Otherwise, it all just seems like a load of hearsay to me.

Welcome back BTW - its nice to see you posting again YB.

[YellowBirch1]

It's very difficult to respond effectively to a post such as this

Then why post anything

[echelon]

You asked the question "Should this be further examined?"

Silly me - I wrongly presumed that you wanted an answer.

My answer is to ask you to define "this" in terms that are more than hearsay.

If you have no evidence to back up any of your claims, then just say so.  I won't bother you again.

[YellowBirch1]

The post is not about me, it is about the picture

[Phil Dragoo]

YellowBirch1, Anthony DeFiore has the following two photos in his analysis available free by emailing him through his blog:





We were assured by Jerry Dealey on jfklancer.com that a Dallas streets engineer adamantly denied there was ever a sewer in such a position.  The blacktop rectangle would seem to indicate there was.  We may safely posit if queried the officials would have a ready explanation.

In DeFiore we see the termination of the balustrade is now punctuated by a tree grown large the past half century and by a relatively new concrete pad bearing two steel electrical cabinets standing sentry and blocking the view to a kill.

Tentative calculations show the limo at Z-313 with its known dimensions places JFK's skull some five feet below the stated Height Above Sea Level (HASL) of the balustrade at termination, a differential which over the 111 yards given the three degree Elm downslope presents a temple shot over the windshield.

I suggest no shot was heard from this area because a WerBell or other suppressor was used in conjunction with a low-power load to produce a subsonic speed.

That no one was seen is understandable for a number of reasons.

No sound or movement from an area far from the limousine and the crowd on North Elm.

The angle of the balustrade screens the area from the dozen on the overpass.

Distractions from shots from Depository and/or Dal-Tex Building and from the fence, with the movement seen behind the fence, and the smoke and smell of gunpowder there.

The crowd ran to the North.  For a half century the focus was there as the alternative to the official propaganda.

I recommend DeFiore as a complement to Sherry's work.

We still have a throat entry wound to account for and DeFiore excludes other sources in his analysis.

Whether the sewer figures, we have Plumlee saying Sergio got muddy sliding down the backside--were the pair a screen for the team at that location.

Perhaps there was a car in that lot concealing a shooter.  Again we have no sound, no nearby witness (discounting the Witt equivalent, Jett, who is the Church Lady's Sandwich Man).

We should allow the analysis to solve our two shots, temple and throat, two separate analysts working independently.

Perhaps identifying a single team.

It is a great era of consolidation.

[Tim Weaver]

This is certainly interesting.
There really arent any hills in Kansas, so I have never seen a drainage system like this next to a bridge, but I reckon I can understand the purpose.
I guess the only way to know for sure if there was a drainage thingy there would be to see blueprints or something.
Or take a large hammer to that little concrete pad.

This to me gives more credence to a south knoll shooter than a guy just hiding in the bushes.

[David C]

So,

One of the questions,

Do we believe Tosh Plumlee,

And if he was there,

I find it hard to believe he and his team were there to abort the mission.

They had already tried to assassinate JFK twice, Miami and Chicago, they finally have everything set, now why would they abort.

[Alan Dale]

So,

One of the questions,

Do we believe Tosh Plumlee [?]

And if he was there,

I find it hard to believe he and his team was there to abort the mission.

They have already tried to assassinate JFK twice, Miami and Chicago, they finally have everything set, now why would they abort.

I feel skepticism is a reasonable approach on the subject of Mr. Plumlee's colorful stories.

[echelon]

Do we believe Tosh Plumlee ...

I find it hard to believe he and his team was there to abort the mission.

Quite.

Assuming his claim is valid, who wanders on foot around the various parts of the site to tell the assembled team(s)?  Presumably they were wearing wellies as it had been raining.

Why not use radio sets to broadcast a previously-agreed abort code?

If the radios were not available/not working, surely the best way to abort would have been to walk out into the middle of the Plaza with a previously-agreed visible signal, such as a red handkerchief ... or an umbrella ...

Oh, an umbrella.  Umm.

It may be that Tosh Plumlee has some interesting insights to share about this case, but I don't buy his abort story.

[Phil Dragoo]

Something I learned in The Assassinations, Jim DiEugenio and Lisa Pease, 2003, from the first edition of Jim's Destiny Betrayed was that Garrison had the investigative services of Lt. Francis Fruge of the Louisiana State Police, the officer associated with Rose Cheramie.

As a development of that, in 2009 at a COPA conference on ARRB, Jim's remarks included:

DiEugenio also said that Jim Garrison had a document concerning the first interview Richard Case Nagell did with his office, Nagell "talks about a tape he has in which there's two Cuban exiles in the summer of 1963 talking about setting up Oswald for the assassination. And one of them is Sergio Arcacha Smith."

DiEugenio said that documents now show that HSCA investigators confirmed the story Rose Cheramie, who was thrown from a moving vehicle in Louisiana, and when hospitalized expressed foreknowledge of the assassination. "But what they didn't say is that they also ID'd the two guys in the car. One is Emelio Santana, the other is Sergio Arcacha Smith." DiEugenio added, "And that's very solid, with these new documents, that she did predict the assassination."

He then added the astonishing detail that according to the HSCA testimony of Francis Fruge, the officer who found Cheramie along the road and was later detailed to the Garrison investigation, Dallas police found a map of the Dealey Plaza sewer system in the apartment of Sergio Arcacha Smith. "He just throws that away, like, 'You guys didn't know that?' And of course, there's no followup to that."

You will find in the record of JFK forum transaction reference to sewer drain pipe tracking back to the jail.  Here is a John Judge-to-tree-frog 2001 memo regarding various aspects:

http://www.ratical.com/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/sewerShot.html

While on jfklancer Jerry Dealey made it clear city officials showed him plans and gave him assurances there was no south drain, there are references to it in 1963 in the work of various researchers.  The holes have been filled but the record has been only imperfectly airbrushed.

Sherry has established a South Knoll trajectory for a shot described by Cyril Wecht as right frontal-temple (six-minute clip from 2012 Wecht Conference).

Anthony DeFiore has shown Perry's inshoot to the throat at Z-225 from the South Knoll.

Robert Tosh Plumlee has told a story of being on the South Knoll as part of an abort team.  We may consider this some manner of plausible denial, in the manner of CIA sending Steven Witt to lampoon the Umbrella Man.

Roger Craig was hounded and murdered following multiple attempts.  Why would an award-winning officer lie?  He was dismissed as one with "more chain than he could carry."

It's our chain now and it's light as a feather.

There is now a large tree at the termination of the balustrade at the South, with a concrete pad with two electrical panels.  Any sewer is filled and paved.  Dallas has its story and it's sticking to it.

[Peter Lemkin]

So,

One of the questions,

Do we believe Tosh Plumlee [?]

And if he was there,

I find it hard to believe he and his team was there to abort the mission.

They have already tried to assassinate JFK twice, Miami and Chicago, they finally have everything set, now why would they abort.

I feel skepticism is a reasonable approach on the subject of Mr. Plumlee's colorful stories.

Hmmmm....how much dare I say here? Few here know that about 23 years ago [long before anyone else had heard of Plumlee's story or gotten their 'hooks' into him [such as Vernon, Dankbaar and others], I had an exclusive contract to do a book on his [Plumlee's life, with Jim Marrs as junior co-writer/researcher]. I spent many years interviewing Plumlee, vetting his story and researching it. I can't go into it all. I never believed in an 'abort team', but can (sometimes) see where someone in his position was told that was the reason for the mission - if it ever occurred with him in it. Over such issues, Plumlee and I came to a parting of the ways. In addition, I started to get late-night threats; electronic bugs on my car; my phone taped and then all my bank accounts frozen and all my possessions seized and held for two years. To this day I don't have a clear idea of exactly what/who was behind that [although it CERTAINLY had to do with my research on Plumlee!] - but it ruined my life, and it remains mostly ruined to this day. I went from very well off to homeless and in debt forever. I eventually left the USA, as the system really wouldn't allow a recovery for me. I'm in contact with Plumlee still, but just two days ago he refused [as he has more times than not] to answer my simple questions trying to resolve the contradictions I'm aware of [that most are not] of his 'story' of Dallas and those of others who were there and evidence we know of now. This alone is suspicious, but he shrugs it off as just 'ancient history' that has 'burned him' whenever he tried to tell his truth to researchers - who he claims always twist and destroy his story and fact. If  he was not there [a distinct possibility], he certainly was coached in detail by someone who was!...so his story may have some importance any way one looks at it. I know much more, but think it best not to detail further here. I may [or may not] respond to direct questions on his story.

[Alan Dale]

So,

One of the questions,

Do we believe Tosh Plumlee [?]

And if he was there,

I find it hard to believe he and his team was there to abort the mission.

They have already tried to assassinate JFK twice, Miami and Chicago, they finally have everything set, now why would they abort.

I feel skepticism is a reasonable approach on the subject of Mr. Plumlee's colorful stories.

Hmmmm....how much dare I say here? Few here know that about 23 years ago [long before anyone else had heard of Plumlee's story or gotten their 'hooks' into him [such as Vernon, Dankbaar and others], I had an exclusive contract to do a book on his [Plumlee's life, with Jim Marrs as junior co-writer/researcher]. I spent many years interviewing Plumlee, vetting his story and researching it. I can't go into it all. I never believed in an 'abort team', but can (sometimes) see where someone in his position was told that was the reason for the mission - if it ever occurred with him in it. Over such issues, Plumlee and I came to a parting of the ways. In addition, I started to get late-night threats; electronic bugs on my car; my phone taped and then all my bank accounts frozen and all my possessions seized and held for two years. To this day I don't have a clear idea of exactly what/who was behind that [although it CERTAINLY had to do with my research on Plumlee!] - but it ruined my life, and it remains mostly ruined to this day. I went from very well off to homeless and in debt forever. I eventually left the USA, as the system really wouldn't allow a recovery for me. I'm in contact with Plumlee still, but just two days ago he refused [as he has more times than not] to answer my simple questions trying to resolve the contradictions I'm aware of [that most are not] of his 'story' of Dallas and those of others who were there and evidence we know of now. This alone is suspicious, but he shrugs it off as just 'ancient history' that has 'burned him' whenever he tried to tell his truth to researchers - who he claims always twist and destroy his story and fact. If  he was not there [a distinct possibility], he certainly was coached in detail by someone who was!...so his story may have some importance any way one looks at it. I know much more, but think it best not to detail further here. I may [or may not] respond to direct questions on his story.

^ Wow, Peter. That's really fascinating.

I am aware of Mr. Plumlee being at the center of some dynamic controversies over at a particular JFK forum, which included allegations that he had faked the announcement of his own death. I also remember reading an exchange between Mr. Plumlee and the late Gerry Patrick Hemming which read like a distinguished Varsity athlete (Hemming) admonishing a boastful freshman who hadn't yet made the team. (That particular episode involved Plumlee's reference to William King Harvey as "Wild Bill." Hemming came in very dismissively to insist that nobody ever referred to Harvey by that name, and that the only "Wild Bill" whose exploits were well documented was Wild Bill Donovan.)

Lots of colorful figures and claims within this realm, and an awful lot of allegations represented as facts.

Thank you for sharing your experience.

[Peter Lemkin]

I should add, that the other parts of Tosh Plumlee's life I know and some which are generally known within the research community 'checked out' to the extent anyone this side of intel ops can check things out. So, the best I can tell he told the truth about all the other operations he was in from a teenager to today. The one [and in my opinion most important] cloudy part is the Dallas trip from Loxahatchee, FL to Dallas and back. There are many aspects of his story [that are little known] that lend some credibility; others that do not - more so that he now apparently refuses to work with anyone on resolving the seeming contradictions. He knew about Wayne January [at Red Bird Airport] long before his name was known in the research community. I attempted to contact January, but he refused to speak to me. It was only decades later when January's affidavit to British researcher Matt Smith [on the condition it not be released until both January and his wife were dead] that I learned a huge discrepancy in the story Plumlee told and the one told by January....but there is enough overlap that if Plumlee was not there, he was told by those who knew exactly what went down in Dallas. I met with both the national security aides of Gary Hart and Sen. John Kerry. They had indeed heard in detail from Plumlee about CIA gun and cocaine running - as well as other crimes and deceptions - during 'Iran-Contra'. Kerry did have Plumlee testify in secret session under oath [all that testimony is still secret!] about both Iran-Contra AND Plumlee's possible participation/witness to Dallas! This was confirmed to me. So, it is a very confusing story, that sadly, Plumlee cares not to clarify - or is not allowed to. Plumlee described two men in the shadow of a tree in one of the famous Dallas photos and Tom Wilson [with whom I worked] was very excited to find not only two persons where Plumlee stated he and another were - but that one of those persons had operational devices on them that matched exactly operational devices seen elsewhere in the Plaza at suspected shooter/spotter/communications locations. When I was destroyed after all my money was seized and I had none of my personal things - including clothes, research, books, anything - Plumlee drifted away into the hands of Vernon [the vermin]...and from there to Dankbaar [who to me is very suspect as a disinformation agent]. Plumlee at first bought the Files story, then distanced himself from it and from Dankbaar. Plumlee is writing his own autobiography now, but it will contain very very little on Dallas and mostly concentrate on the other parts of his life in covert ops [all of which checked out in my detailed research]. I once had Brad Ayers and Plumlee meet without the other knowing who they'd be meeting. Each claimed not to know the other by name. The met at my San Diego condo...before I could introduce  them, they were in an old comrades-in-arms embrace and exchanging names of persons, locations, missions and codenames faster than I could write them down. This, however, is on tape. Ayers confirmed that Plumlee was seen at JM/WAVE and was a pilot for Roselli - as well as doing other flight operations [off the shelf/deniable] for the CIA at that time. Plumlee and Hemming hated each other and both refused to say why. They knew many people in common and had met on occasion on missions or training exercises. I'm inclined to believe that Plumlee did know Oswald [which one? - Lee?] and trained at the same secret training base as he did. It was there that Oswald met the man he was trying to call from Dallas jail. There is much more to the story I know....and the pieces of the puzzle that don't fit. Tosh's 'call' of one shot from the S. Knoll seems to be borne out now. He knew the location of all the CIA safehouses in Dallas at the time and claims to have been to many - some when Oswald was there. It is very sad he is not more forthcoming at this point in time. He has not been for many 'a year and I don't expect this to change. He will repeat his standard story, but will go no further and will not answer questions to me that try to resolve contradictions. There is MUCH more to his story than most know! Some checks out and is of great interest. Just after Dallas he was charged with a trumped-up bad-check charge supposedly from a grocery half a continent away from where he was running covert ops out of a prison [no joke!]....he was arrested and flown in chains to that state [CO] and put in a max. sec. Federal [?!] prison with an 'indeterminate sentence - I've never heard of one before or since!....He claims his 'parole officer' was really a CIA officer and they wouldn't let him out until he promised to their satisfaction to never again talk about Dallas and what he saw there. At some point [about two years] he was released and soon after got a LOAN [!!!!sic!!!!] from a one person, one desk 'bank' for enough money to buy a plane and start a proprietary airline for the Company operations again. And there is much more.....

Now, he's doing good work on guns and drugs in Mexico and the death of Sabow [who he knew]. He is a very complex person and, as with many covert operatives, difficult to work with for those of us in the research community. Someday, I'll try to write up the 'funny thing happened to me on my way to exploring the JFK Assassination'. The working title of the book I was doing on Plumlee's life was 'Tell the Truth, and then Run Like Hell!'......