Oswald in TSBD Doorway - Dougherty the TSBD Sniper?

[Redfern]

Has anyone been reading the 'Prayer Man' thread on the Education Forum?

What started as an examination of an indistinct figure caught in the Weigman and Darnell films has developed into a full-blown attack on the Warren narrative by Sean Murphy.


Sean argues that Oswald was in the doorway and then moved to a storage room, not far from the main entrance. The storage room element has been proposed by several researchers in recent years as well as the view that the second-floor lunchroom encounter being a fabrication required to nail Oswald.

However, most noteably, he says that the encounter between Baker and the man on the stairs on the 3rd or 4th floor never happened and the description matched that broadcast by police of the suspected assassin almost exactly. The 'light brown jacket' was added in line with what was thought to be the murderer's attire at the Tippit shooting.

Sean also alleges that Baker and Truly came up stairs to the second floor at the TSBD entrance and not by those at the rear. This could explain the failure of Vickie Adams to see Baker and Truly - she saw only Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor.

The latter two ran quickly around the TSBD to enter at the rear. Why? Adams' allegation means they lied about their movements.

Sean Murphy thinks that Baker and Truly then ascended by an elevator and not the stairs.


He's come up with some brilliant thinking, although the figure on the 3rd/4th floor stairs may have been Jack Dougherty and not a phantom - Baker would then have given a false description. Of course, Oswald was in the very same room in the City Hall when Baker was writing his affidavit but he failed to mention him as the man he saw.

One issue that's always concerned me is that Dougherty is all too readily dismissed as an assassin and viewed as someone who was only capable of helping a sniper escape.

Arnold Rowland's statements and testimony strike me as posing a problem for the 'assassin was an outsider' theory. Why would an assassin be happy to share the 6th floor with Bonnie Ray Williams and at least one other person - in all probability TSBD employees - only a few minutes before the motorcade arrived?

I suspect the figure caught on the Alyea film on the 6th floor during the police search was Jack Dougherty. He was wearing what seemed to be a white or light-coloured shirt or T-shirt, in line with descriptions given by witnesses of the assassin's clothing.

Dougherty was the only white man known to be on the upper floors of the TSBD during the relevant time-frame. He fully admitted this.

I suspect that the man in the brown suit seen by Carolyn Walther standing beside the sniper was either Truly or Shelley.


Was the assassination (the TSBD component at least) an inside job and the truth has been hidden in full view for 50 years?

 



 

[TLR]

Is this the photo?

http://jfkcountercoup2.blogspot.com/2013/08/oswald-leaving-tsbd.html

I don't know how anyone could "identify" a person from that.  I can believe that Baker and Truly lied about encountering Oswald, though. Unfortunately we have no photo of Jack Dougherty. I really think that no shots were actually fired from the TSBD and the place was just a decoy location.

[Redfern]

There is a much clearer version of the photograph available on the Education Forum ... see recent posts.

The identification of Oswald does not depend exclusively on the frame from the film. It mainly relies on statements and comments - the film evidence is support. If the figure was not Oswald, then who among the TSBD employees was it?


The acoustics study found three shots were fired from the sixth floor. This was accurate to within two feet or so.

Numerous onlookers also heard a shot fired from the sixth floor.


We have no photographs of Dougherty but there are grounds for believing he shows up in Alyea,

[TLR]

IMO, the acoustics evidence is a mess and I've never put much stock in it.
Do you have a link to the page with the better photo?

[echelon]

Is this the photo?

http://jfkcountercoup2.blogspot.com/2013/08/oswald-leaving-tsbd.html

I don't know how anyone could "identify" a person from that.  I can believe that Baker and Truly lied about encountering Oswald, though.

This particular EF thread has been one of the most interesting I have read for many years.  I really do believe that they may be on to something, and that the so-called "Prayer Man" may indeed to turn out to be Oswald.

I don't want to re-hash all the same old arguments here as they can (and should) be read over there.  I would just like to draw attention to the alleged evidence that (a) Prayer Man was a TSBD employee and (b) most, if not all, of the other TSBD employees can be ruled out.  See in particular posts 195 and 213.

Thus, by a process of elimination, who else can it be?

IMO, the acoustics evidence is a mess and I've never put much stock in it.
Do you have a link to the page with the better photo?

I tend to agree with you about the acoustic evidence.

Robin Unger has better quality frames from the Darnell movie, which shows Prayer Man, here:

http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/thumbnails.php?album=19&page=2

[Kelly]

Hello Redfern and all. I am intrigued by this.  I visit most of the other forums especially the Education and JFK Assassination Forums just about every day. I somehow missed this interesting topic altogether. I will study the topic on the Ed Forum and here to see what I can make of it. I ordered The Girl On The Stairs Friday and it`s on its way. I don`t know what to think of the acoustic study anymore. I was always an advocate just because of the "order of the data", in other words the test firings supposedly match the dictabelt tape`s suspected impulses, thus proving that there were the 3 shots from the TSBD building and a shot from the grassy knoll. In addition, there was a loud noise right before Oswald (or someone) fired their first shot. This was a noise loud enough to register, but did not have enough echo patterns to be a gunshot. They believe it may be a motorcycle backfiring. Also, there was a gunshot from behind other than the TSBD building, but there were only 2 locations tested in the recreation of the event. Some researchers speculate that it came from the Dal-Tex building. All this seems fine, but now we have Sherry saying that the frontal shot was not fired from the grassy knoll location behind the fence that we are all familiar with. I trust Sherry and I believe she is right therefore it throws the acoustical study out the door IMO. Oh, well. So be it. As far as Prayer Man goes, I will have to read up on that. One question comes to my mind. I always said that Oswald was suspicious because he didn`t have anyone to vouch for his whereabouts at that time. Would it be wrong to suggest that these folks who were around "Oswald" would come forward and identify him? Or did they? That is just a thought.

[TLR]

I don't really have time to look for it; could someone please post a link to the right page on the Education Forum?

[Redfern]

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?s=6ca7a38f947d111308b2cfc3352211a0&showtopic=20354&page=44

Some decent frames on post #647...


As for the acoustics evidence, I am a very firm believer.

The Kennedy assassination is surrounded by confusion, ambiguity, conflicting witness statements and so on. This certainly applies to the medical evidence (even if some statements changed due to external pressure).

However, unlike nearly every aspect, the acoustics study involves hard physical science. The groups which carried out the subsequent analysis were experts.

I'd take a scientist carrying out a project like this over agenda-driven lawyers any day of the week.

Let's not forget that the reputations of these people (and their companies) were on the line - as are those of all genuine scientists and technologists whenever they present a report or academic paper.


The argument that the sixth floor of the TSBD was a decoy location would surely have more merit were shots actually fired from there.

[Redfern]

Sean Murphy's done tremendous work over on the Education Forum. His argument concerning the origin of Fritz's notes looks like a major development.


I am not convinced by his conclusion concerning the escape of assassins, though. It certainly is possible that they could have escaped by the east elevator, although this would be true whether Baker and Truly ascended by the west elevator or the stairs.

Nonetheless, if (as I believe) the two white men seen by Baker near the elevators on the first floor were Shelley and Lovelady, then it is hard to ascribe a benign significance to their behaviour. (If they weren't Shelley and Lovelady, then who were they?)

Moreover, if the argument that these two were Shelley and Lovelady, then the time-scale assumed by most for Baker and Truly's ascent of the stairs is way out. It looks like Virginia Adams and Sandra Styles had already vacated the building before Baker and Truly arrived. Could Baker have been held up at the front entrance for much longer than most believe?


We are still left with the conundrum of the mysterious figure on the 3rd or 4th floor stairs. I really wonder if Baker would have gone along at that stage (90 minutes after the assassination) with a false description that sought to blame the assumed double-murderer (i.e., Oswald).

I suspect there's a good chance Baker encountered this man on the 5th rather than the 3rd or 4th floors - Dorothy Garner on the 4th saw no-one descend by stairs after VA and SS descended.

[Kelly]

Off and on all day I have been reading the Education Forum`s posts on the man in the shadows, prayer man. It is really interesting. There are 30 some pages of this and in addition I found out that there is another forum with more of the same. I don`t know what to think so far. I will say that the first picture looks like Oswald to me but I know that Billy Lovelady resembled him. They are saying it isn`t him anyway, but I don`t know. I would love for it to be Oswald. There is a little support for it being Oswald with his own words. He told someone that he stepped out to see what the commotion was all about and also he told a reporter looking for a pay phone, where to find one. It would seem too easy for it to be Oswald and I don`t know how this can be resolved.

[echelon]

I will say that the first picture looks like Oswald to me but I know that Billy Lovelady resembled him. They are saying it isn`t him anyway, but I don`t know.

Kelly, one person Prayer Man cannot be is Lovelady, as both characters appear beside each other in some frames of one of the films (let me know if you can't find it in that long thread).

It's when you ask the question "who else could it be?", and then work through the possibilities, that the Prayer-Man-as-Oswald hypothesis gets VERY interesting.

[Redfern]

Lovelady had already left the front steps with Shelley at the time of the frames in question.

[echelon]

Lovelady had already left the front steps with Shelley at the time of the frames in question.

Steady.

Lovelady and Prayer Man appear side by side in the Wiegman film, immediately prior to the assassination.

See the attached frame from Robin Unger's site:

www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=13&pos=0

[TLR]

I don't know how anyone could identify such a fuzzy and vague image. It's a man, that's about all I can say.

In any case, this is really bad control of the patsy by the plotters. What if LHO had decided to stand out on Elm Street and was photographed by a dozen people? No, his handler would have to make sure he stayed in the building, maybe by telling him to wait around the phone in the 1st floor warehouse or something.

[Kelly]

Thanks guys. I get it that it wasn`t Lovelady. I still think the shadowy figure has a slim build and could be LHO. There`s no way to tell, I realize that, but I would love to know.