General Category => The Tippit Murder => Topic started by: Alan Dale on July 11, 2013, 02:25:15 AM
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Basic question. Few certainties.
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well I think the only way I could vote was to say I don't know . there is evidence pointing towards Oswald and even witnesses but as with the assassination I think there are many problems with the evidence .
1/ did Oswald have time to get to 10th and patton ?
most people will say he had plenty of time as the shooting took place at 1.16 , but that's when the call was supposedly made on officer tippits radio not when the shooting occurred . even LNs such as bill brown acknowledge that the shooting could have occured at 1.13 or tad earlier . the warren commissions own time trials in which they timed the bus and cab ride barely allow Oswald to get home by 1pm , it appears the did their best to get the best times to suit their case much as they did with the tsbd time trials .
according to oswalds landlady he arrived home at 1pm or a little after , Oswald according to interrogation notes changed his clothing his slacks and shirt and placed them in a drawer where an inventory shows such clothes were indeed found . oswalds landlady said he stayed 3 or 4 minutes in his room and then left , a moment or so later mrs Roberts goes to the window and sees Oswald still standing out side , if mrs Roberts was correct Oswald would have still been outside at the bus stop around 1.05 if not later she did not observer him leaving . that at best leaves him 8 minutes to reach 10th and patton . gary mack in a video available on youtube managed 2 different times , one was a tad over 16 minutes the other a tad over 11 minutes which would both have Oswald arriving to late . of course mack being mack he started the the time trial at 1pm and never allowed for Oswald changing his clothes are mrs Roberts saying he was in his room 3 or 4 minutes or that she looked out a time after he had left and that he was still standing there .theres no way to work out the time 100% accurate but if the warren commission struggled to just get Oswald to his rooming house by 1pm and that was done by taking the times that best suited them then I feel Oswald didn't arrive before 1pm he arrived at 1pm or some time shortly after that .
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2/ the majority of the witnesses but not all place the shooting some time between a little after 1pm and 1.10pm including star witness Helen markham who placed the time of the shooting at around 1.07 .witnesses on patton street placed the time at a little after 1pm and t f bowley said he arrived at 1.10 and officer tippit was shot . cab driver scoggins placed the time as about 1.20 and one of the davis girls said it was 1.30 , im more inclined to go with a majority of witnesses as opposed to one or two. its simple here if Oswald didn't have the time to walk or run that only leaves two options which are he was picked up and driven there (and that's would never be an option as that could mean conspiracy ) or he was never there .
3/ the line ups probably violated every police rule and regulation their is , even cab driver whalley said anyone would have picked Oswald.
I suppose one could compile a lengthy list but ill stop here , but I feel Oswald could have been there at 10th and patton I just don't see how he walked or ran there he just didn't have time in my opinion for what that's worth .we also need to consider Helen markhams 2 descriptions , she told agent odum the guy was young about 18 with black hair and she told lane he was a little short and a little chunky and his hair was a little bushy .I think its fair to say that Oswald did not look 18 (nor did he have black hair ) far from it , even at the age of 23 he probably looked as tho he was about 30 . also he certainly couldn't be described as a little chunky as he was quite slight and at 5 feet 10 I wouldn't say he was short either . another lady acquila clemmons said she saw two men one of which matched markhams short and chunky description the othe rbeing slight and would match oswalds appearance , and markham and calloway gave differing descriptions of the mans clothing and a different account of the mans escape route and this evidence seems to indicate that two men where there and ran off in different directions . one of the davis girls (I believe the youngest ) said the man wore a black coat , frank wright also said the man wore a black coat , the coat found was a very light color . so many contradictions and so many questions and sadly not enough answers .
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^ Good posts. Focusing on the chronology makes sense to me. Discrepancies between and among witnesses is most common during criminal investigations. The issues of which you speak are some of the best for us to consider when asking, based upon what we believe we know, would LHO have been convicted of the murder of patrolman JD Tippit. I am increasingly convinced that he would not have been convicted based upon a preponderance of the evidence resolving reasonable doubt.
Thanks for participating.
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Gary Murr's 1971 unpublished 80-page monograph "The Murder of Dallas Police Officer J.D. Tippit" - there's a "Download" button where you can save it as PDF file.
http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/ref/collection/po-arm/id/11869 (http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/ref/collection/po-arm/id/11869)
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I may be crazy and probably am, but I just have the suspicion, despite all the rigmarole involved in this particular saga within the "Kennedy assassination" that Oswald did it. I`m aware of the different bullets and shells, controversy concerning the jackets, not to mention Oswalds timing to get where he needed to be in order to kill Officer Tippit. Also, I`m aware of the witnesses upon the scene, but to me that is subjective. I really think most witnesses are poorly skilled when it come to memorizing details. I can really see this in myself. Things happen so fast, most folks aren`t really trained to notice details. That`s my belief. I have never, and I`ve looked and tried to find someone or something to really sway me to the other side. Keep in mind, I think there was a conspiracy but I have to call it like I see it out of my own ability to comprehend data. I admit, that I could be wrong, I just don`t know, but to me the scale tips in favor of Oswald having done this out of a basic need to escape the predicament he found himself in. To me this has no bearing on if Oswald killed President Kennedy or participated somehow. That`s another subject. I think at the monment that Oswald and Tippit met, ever how that came to be, Oswald at the very least felt intimadated by Officer Tippiet in some way. It could be that Tippit was threatening to bring him in to headquarters, or perhaps, Tippit was trying to get Oswald to go somewhere with him that Oswald didn`t trust. At any rate, Oswald drew his gun first and prevailed at that instance.
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^ Good post, Kelly! I'm not convinced it was LHO and, on the face of it all, lean toward this thinking below.
I am increasingly convinced that he would not have been convicted based upon a preponderance of the evidence resolving reasonable doubt.
Trouble is, IMO, the statistics of the day don't seem to be in favor of the above and they were probably going to nail "their man." I don't remember the investigation continuing in effort to find the "real killer."
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Ok, I have searched the forum and find no reference to this, although I may be missing something. I offer my apologies if it has been mentioned. I don`t want to steal anyones' thunder, so to speak. This has been mentioned on the Deep Politics Forum and also on the Education Forum, which has been resurrected, by the way! Anyway, I will reference the Education Forum. There is a new book called Into the Nightmare: My Search For the Killers of President John F. Kennedy and Officer J.D. Tippit by Joseph McBride. Look on amazon.com. There are 2 reviews thus far. It is published by Hightower Press, is a whopping 675 pages long, just published June 15, 2013. The discussion on the Ed Forum starts on their page 2, about the 5th topic down. It`s pretty new. I`m pretty close to ordering this book, but may wait to see if there are any used copies available within the next week or so. Among McBride`s revelations are that Tippit was hunting for Oswald the last 24 minutes of his life. This is no shock for most of us. He believes that Tippit was in on the conspiracy and was trying to kill or capture Oswald. Again, no great shock. He claims that there were at least two men and possibly up to four men involved in the shooting. I will be interested in this theory. Last, but not least, it comes a surprise to me that McBride claims that Mary Ferrell may have been a great misinformation agent. I was shocked at this, but after looking at the Deep Politics Forum and the Ed Forum for awhile, I see that there are a few people who apparently share this view. Anyway, in a nutshell, that`s what I have. Feel free to respond.
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Hi, Kelly! Yes, I would agree that Tippit seemed to have an agenda and was frantically trying to accomplish it. I've always been of the opinion that it was foolish to assume that he didn't reach anyone with his phone call from the record shop just because he didn't speak. I believe he heard something that made him take off like a bat outta hell!
Up to four men involved in TIPPIT'S shooting you say? I could believe that it is a possibility that some participated in various capacities but a large gathering in the open at the time of the shots seems unlikely, no?
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Hi Karl. Yes, that is what that fellow, Joseph McBride believes happened. He stated on the Ed Forum that there was another officer besides Tippit involved in the pursuit of Oswald. He also said that there 2, 3 or even 4 men involved in the shooting. He gives names in his book of possible suspects. ;
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My opinion was developed over the years partially from accounts of a second police car seen shortly after the shots in the driveway which Tippit's car was blocking. Back in the day it was possible to enter that driveway from the street or the back alley behind the homes, which statements infer that the second patrol car slowly backed out of to make it's "escape." The recounting of this sighting often goes hand in hand with accounts of another man who emerged from the driveway to view the slain officer then disappearing back up the driveway towards the alley. The fact is, though, that we only have eyewitness accounts, some not coming immediately after the shooting. It does seem to be corroborated but we still have to take the general reliability of eyewitness accounts into consideration. Just think, if cell phones were around back then there would be plenty more photos than the ones we are lucky enough to have! ;) IMO, this is all still believable enough to be considered and not tossed to the throw-away pile. Here is an exchage on the subject:
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=5481.0;wap2
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Unless Oswald was driven to the scene, it's hard to get him there in time on foot, especially since the evidence suggests the murder happened a few minutes earlier than the official story says.
Some interesting tidbits that should make you go hmmm....
8/19/66 Richard Stark and Paul-Michel Mielche said they were harassed and threatened in Dallas while working on documentary film Rush to Judgment. Police warned them "it might be dangerous" if they didn't get out of town. They said their impression was that the police “were more concerned about our footage on the death of Tippit .. than in the Kennedy shooting.†(San Francisco Chronicle)
12/26/1963 FBI report: JIMMY EARL BURT said he drove his car to the next intersection which is Denver and 10th Streets and turned west on 10th. He immediately saw a police car parked at the curb in the middle of the block. It was parked facing east on 10th Street. A police officer was lying on the street near the left front wheel. BURT later recognized him as being an officer who frequented that neighborhood. This particular officer was known by the name "Friendly" to the residents of that area.
In his Warren Commission testimony Vol. 3 page 324-325 Scoggins gives some startling information about Tippit's activities. Tippit was observed in the neighborhood quite often: “I noticed he stopped down there, and I wasn't paying too much attention to the man, you see, just used to see him every day, but then I kind of looked down the street, saw this, someone, that looked to me like he was going west, now, I couldn't exactly say whether he was going west or was in the process of turning around, but he was facing west when I saw him.â€
Witness Virginia Davis also thought Tippit lived in the area:
Mr. BELIN. Where was the police car parked?
Mrs. DAVIS. It was parked between the hedge that marks the apartment house where he lives in and the house next door.
One press account from that day read, "Investigators said....'We have a report the fellow who did the shooting of the policeman had a rifle in a car with him.'" (Dallas Times Herald 11/22/1963)
WFAA-TV news coverage (sometime after 2pm on 11/22): photographer Ron Reiland is interviewed, just back from the Texas Theater. He says that the police officer was shot with a “.38 automatic…200 or more police officers went into the Theater and found a man sitting in the second row from the back that was armed with a shotgun.†Crowd outside the theater was almost a lynch mob.
[Later WFAA-TV footage, unknown time, same day]: Reiland’s film footage of a cop holding a discarded white jacket. Report that a man had come into the Theater “with a shotgun over his arm, of course everybody broke and ran…†Police Capt Pat Gannaway is reported to have said that suspect worked in TSBD, had been in Russia, married to a Russian, and was the same man who shot Tippit.
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Aquila Clemmons said it wasn't Lee Oswald, and was threatened into silence by two white officers with guns.
Domingo Benevidez would not identify Lee Oswald--until his brother was shot in the head, fatally.
Warren Reynolds was shot in the head after which he was able to identify the gunman as Lee Oswald.
Richard Belzer and David Wayne in Hit List cite information from Tosh Plumlee that Tippit was part of an extraction team.
Certainly his actions were of an agitated nature; he was desperately looking for someone.
A police car had stopped and honked at Lee Oswald's rooming house.
The timing was misrepresented to make Oswald's presence feasible, and the evidence of both revolver and automatic shells was suppressed.
There is no definitive ballistic proof.
Given the witness intimidation, the Tippit murder is, like the Walker shooting, a contrivance integral to the frame of the patsy.
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There are several reasons why Oswald wasn't Tippit's killer.
Perhaps of greater importance is the issue of what Tippit was doing in Oak Cliff in the first place and it is hard not to conclude that his presence was related to either eliminating Oswald or (in his own mind, at least) facilitating his escape.
By refusing to identify his initials on two shells found at the scene, Officer Poe completely undermined the case against Oswald.
Aside from the tainted physical evidence, the case against him largely relies on eyewitness sightings. Yet we know that - for example - witnesses at the Sportsdrome rifle range who had a much clearer view of Oswald/'Oswald' and gave very detailed accounts either lied or were 'mistaken'.
We also have two accounts of Oswald being inside the TT at the time of the Tippit shooting.
The timing problems faced by Warren stemmed from the insistence that the bus trip took place and that Oswald couldn't drive or have access to a car. The former issue was dictated by DPD's claim that a bus transfer had been found, although it was probably introduced into the evidence at a later stage.
I suspect that Oswald was indeed in the TT when Tippit was shot. It also looks as if Tippit has messed up or chickened out and was surplus to requirements. I sense that the wallet with Hidell/Oswald ID was originally meant to be found on a dead Oswald. There is the possibility that Tippit had the wallet in his possession for this very purpose.
My gut feeling is that his murderer walked to 410 East Tenth from a position not far from Kay Coleman's flat - one block from Tippit's last reported position. It seems that 410 was occupied by someone Tippit was very close to - possibly Joyce McDonald.
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I'd have serious doubts about any conspiracy theory that assumed Oswald would be allowed to wander about on his own.
How could conspirators be certain he wouldn't vanish altogether or contact the nearest newspaper or radio station to spill the beans?
After all, the reason the vast majority believe Ruby shot Oswald was fear that the latter would talk.
The timing factor also means Oswald couldn't have done it. Helen Markham was walking for the 1.12 bus and left home at 1.04 - the walk to 10th and Patton would take about 2-3 minutes.
Tippit's assailant was seen as far as 3 blocks east which would eat up another 3 minutes or so - Oswald was at 1026 at this time.
I always thought this exchange sounds like a coded instruction to Tippit.
588. DIS: 78.
589. 78: 78.
590. DIS: You are in the Oak Cliff area, are you not?
591. 78: Lancaster and Eighth.
592. DIS: You will be at large for any emergency that comes in.
Despite the argument that Oak Cliff was devoid of resources, several other officers were close by.
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^ As close by as the driveway Tippit's car was blocking?!! ;)
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^ As close by as the driveway Tippit's car was blocking?!! ;)
There are four different accounts.
1. The official DPD/Warren line of a lone killer wearing a light-coloured jacket running westwards along 10th and then south on Patton, unloading shells.
2. Frank Wright - he mentioned a man driving off in a 1950-51 grey Plymouth and said that he and a woman from close to 410 East 10th were first on the scene. No mention of Markham.
3. Acquila Clemons - two men, one 'short and chunky' (the murderer) and one tall and slim who ran off in different directions.
4. The Doris Holans story of a 'man in the driveway' (we aren't told if he was dressed in police uniform) who (presumably) got out of a police car and was first on the scene.
I don't see how these stories can be reconciled - maybe individual parts can be, but not the entire accounts.
Supporting Frank Wright's version of events is that his claim of making a phone call is that '501 East 10th' was broadcast as the scene of the crime on DPD radio. Against this is that the timing of the murder seems to be later than that put by other witnesses. He appeared adamant that hisaccount was the truth.
I am not too sure about the Clemons version - the 'chunky' phrase seems to have been introduced by Mark Lane.
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An interview with Joseph McBride about his new book, Into the Nightmare.
"Edgar Lee Tippit, [policeman J. D. Tippit’s father] who was 90 years old and sharp as a tack and to whom no one had ever spoken before on the record, told me that Marie Tippit was visited by a policeman after the assassination to tell her what happened. He and J.D. had been told to hunt Oswald and Tippit had gotten there and been shot. The other policeman had apparently been in an auto accident. This was all new information. Although people had speculated – even as early as December 1963 – that Tippit had been sent out to find Oswald and shoot him, or capture him – but this is fresh confirmation from an inside source. Edgar Lee didn’t know the name of the other policeman so I tried to explore that. I come out with some names of some policemen who were not where they were supposed to be and may be candidates."
http://www.examiner.com/article/an-interview-with-joseph-mcbride-on-his-new-jfk-book-into-the-nightmare-part-1 (http://www.examiner.com/article/an-interview-with-joseph-mcbride-on-his-new-jfk-book-into-the-nightmare-part-1)
http://www.examiner.com/article/an-interview-with-joseph-mcbride-on-his-new-jfk-book-into-the-nightmare-part-2 (http://www.examiner.com/article/an-interview-with-joseph-mcbride-on-his-new-jfk-book-into-the-nightmare-part-2)
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Any police involved in an auto accident that day?
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TLR, this is excellent. I think I am getting set in my ways. I have heard the same old tune from lone assassin advocates so long, I guess it`s rubbed off on me. Perhaps there is new information out there that is revelant and I don`t know why I have failed to see it. I appreciate all the researchers who go out there and talk to people and look at the old evidence. They are very appreciated.
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Any police involved in an auto accident that day?
I haven't heard of any official report about an accident involving a police vehicle.
Tippit was shot dead in the sector monitored by Patrolman Mentzel. Mentzel was the only patrol officer after 12.45 to be taking a break.
He later claimed to be in a restaurant/café on West Jefferson 2 blocks from the Texas Theater.
Shortly after he came back into service at 1.o7, there was a report of a traffic accident at 817 West Davis. However, another officer dealt with it.
Immediately on hearing of Tippit's death, Mentzel was the first officer to be contacted by the Dispatcher. This call was not responded to - one of 3 calls to patrol officers in Oak Cliff that went unanswered.
(This has to be seen in the context of Tippit missing calls once every 15 or 18 months.)
Tippit missed a call at 1.03 and Parker too missed one earlier. Moreover, less than a minute before the 12.45 instruction to Tippit to move into the central Oak Cliff area ostensibly because it was being depleted of resources, Parker said he was on East Jefferson!
The roles of Mentzel, Parker and off-duty Reserve Sergeant Croy (the first officer on the scene of the Tippit murder) raise suspicions.
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Thanks, Redfern.
I've ordered McBride's book. It looks like about 40% of the book is on the Tippit murder, and he did many years of research on it.
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McBride firmly believes that the Z-film was altered and that the limo came to a full stop. The former and latter are pretty well disproven by other photo's and films that are consistent with the Z-Film. One should not throw the baby out with the bathwater, so his work on Tippet can still be credible of course.
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I agree Mitch. What do I really know for sure? Nothing, but to try to figure things out for myself, not to argue with anyone, but to figure the most likely scenario that fits with the information I have just for my personal knowledge. A big problem occurs whn all the information hasn`t come out. Some of the researchers of today have diligently followed leads and even interviewed witnesses. My respect goes to them. Sometimes, these researchers adopt the opinion that the Zapruder film has been faked or altered. I believe it is intact and I don't understand it, but if if the same researcher has other pertinent information I`m going to have a look at it. I was going to order the book Into the Nightmare, but I think our library is going to purchase it. I will wait, but I look forward to reading it. I can' t wait to see what he has to offer concerning the Tippit murder.