Author Topic: What Do You Believe?  (Read 16988 times)

Alan Dale

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What Do You Believe?
« on: July 11, 2013, 12:39:33 am »
The purpose of this thread is to see what we each might offer as a summary of what we believe, not what we can prove, as succinctly as possible. It should not go without saying that this first conversation starter must not overshadow nor ignore its obvious corollary: Why Do You Believe What You Believe?

I'll start.

I used to believe James Jesus Angleton and William King Harvey piggy-backed a sinister plot to kill President Kennedy upon authorized operations which were ostensibly directed against Castro, and that they orchestrated several overlapping but compartmental plans from which a coordinated physical attack upon President Kennedy (arranged by William King Harvey) and a diabolically clever incrimination of the sadly disposable low-level asset, Lee Harvey Oswald (arranged by James J. Angleton) made news that altered History. I now feel that this hypothetical partnership between two infamous CIA executives may be be correct but was not necessarily the result of a collaborative agreement between them. At a cautious minimum, I believe that by examining these particular figures, their careers, and their operational resources, we are focusing upon an important center relevant to these investigations.

I've also come to recognize the importance of the Dallas 488th Intel unit, the immediate post assassination transmission of a physical description of "Oswald" which, in fact, described quite accurately an interesting figure named Robert Webster (search Bill Simpich, Robert Webster) whose identity seems to have been intentionally blurred with that of LHO by CIA executives, and what is described here by Professor Peter Dale Scott:

A more ominous provocation in 1963 was that of Army Intelligence, one unit of which in Dallas did not simply withhold information about Lee Harvey Oswald, but manufactured false intelligence that seemed designed to provoke retaliation against Cuba. I call such provocations phase-one stories, efforts to portray Oswald as a Communist conspirator (as opposed to the later phase-two stories, also false, portraying him as a disgruntled loner). A conspicuous example of such phase-one stories is a cable from the Fourth Army Command in Texas, reporting a tip from a Dallas policeman who was also in an Army Intelligence Reserve unit. The cable was not an isolated aberration. It was supported by other false phase-one stories from Dallas about Oswald's alleged rifle, and specifically by concatenated false translations of Marina Oswald's testimony, to suggest that Oswald's rifle in Dallas was the one he had owned in Russia.

At Professor Scott's urging, I am currently seeking as much information as possible about Col. Frank Brandstetter, Jack Crichton, Philippe Thyraud de Vosjoli, a French intelligence (SDECE) agent who was an associate of James Angleton's, and the tantalizing story of a French assassin named Jean Souetre, whose presence in Dallas at the time of the assassination may be the most intriguing fact of all.

I would be remiss in not referring to David Sanchez Morales/Miami's jm/wave station/Mexico City shenanigans, CIA/Mafia collaborations against Castro, Howard Hughes and Robert Maheu...

At this point I run the risk of not observing my own stipulation of being as succinct as possible. Good luck with that.

Your turn.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 10:04:37 pm by Alan Dale »
Our future may lie beyond our vision, but it is not completely beyond our control. It is the shaping impulse of America that neither fate nor nature nor the irresistible tides of history, but the work of our own hands, matched to reason and principle, that will determine our destiny.

RFK

Kelly

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Re: What Do You Believe?
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2013, 01:03:34 pm »
Wow, Alan. I need time to think now!! LOL

TLR

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Re: What Do You Believe?
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2013, 08:15:09 pm »
For many years, I believed in a relatively low-level plot involving rogue CIA people, some mobsters and Cuban exiles, and maybe some Texas oilmen. In recent years, though, I've come to believe the top plotters were at a higher level: A faction of the Pentagon top brass, a faction of the CIA, a few key Secret Service personnel, plus some Cuban exiles, a few Dallas police and some organized crime figures.

The goal was to kill JFK and make it look like Castro was responsible to justify an attack on Cuba and perhaps the Soviet Union. Similar plans had been drawn up with Operation Northwoods and the 1961 Pentagon/CIA plans for a preemptive strike on USSR by late 1963. The hope was that public/media outrage would be similar to Pearl Harbor or the explosion of the Maine, and will force the rest of the government (such as a reluctant President McKinley in 1898) to go along with war against Cuba and/or USSR. This is not a traditional military coup (like Greece in 1967); this is an attempt to put in power a President friendlier to the military-industrial complex and force him to adopt their agenda.

* CIA, Military, Cuban Exiles and Organized Crime have established connections and working relationships before and after JFK assassination. Sending William K. Harvey to Rome and Lyman Lemnitzer to NATO (France at that time) was a mistake on JFK's part, because it put them in closer contact with the Gladio network of paramilitary mercenaries/fascists/assassins.

* Secret Service stand-down (myth is created that Kennedy didn't want agents on back of the car), photographers' vehicle cancelled. Likely some people in the SS were led to believe that a simulated assassination or exercise
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 10:09:38 pm by Alan Dale »

Mitch C.

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Re: What Do You Believe?
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2013, 02:34:12 pm »
So glad you embarked on this site, Alan.

Despite a fair amount of knowledge, I am not near as learned as you other early forum members; but I appreciate the opportunity to share. Since this is not a scholarly piece, please forgive me for not citing all the specific evidence in the portions regarding 'who' and 'why' when I use the phrase "evidence suggests".

I believe the truth of the JFK assassination can be viewed on the larger "crux" question (one shooter or multiple) with near certainty: i.e. beyond a reasonable doubt. More than one person was shooting at the President in Dealey Plaza that day. This is proven by the spacing of the (audible) shots. Bang...........Bang-Bang! Impossible to fire that quickly with the rifle that Oswald reputedly used. This is not even arguable to me: the audio evidence confirmed by every Secret Service man on the ground that gave testimony to the Warren Commission, and the majority of the witnesses, no matter where they were in the Plaza confirm this. Those who believe in one shooter, i.e. Oswald Lone Nutter's have never even begun to try to explain this discrepancy seriously. Usually there are generally comments of "echoes" and "unreliable witness testimony", before the subject is delicately changed to areas where the LN'er feels more confident. The Z-Film, which I believe also supports the audio evidence;  adds the extra dimension of DIRECTION of the shots. Despite Lone Nutter's valiant attempts to persuade otherwise; a rational person (or a rational person being perfectly honest with them self) viewing that film must conclude different direction's are likely involved.

After this, my confidence level starts to drop on the who and why. For example, although a fair case can be made that Oswald could not have been shooting, and then had time to make it down the stairs to that lunchroom and Coke machine; I am still on the fence about whether he was one of the shooters or was a 100 per cent patsy as explained in one of the above posts. My studies and reading have me leaning toward a patsy scenario; with the caveat that Oswald was not a total innocent; meaning, he knew something was up that day, and he was part of a plan of some kind. Assuming this is true, I believe it became apparent to Oswald very quickly of some sort of "double-cross", as he exited the Plaza during the confusion just after the shooting.

As for the Tippet shooting? There again, I have heard good arguments on both sides; but I lean toward Oswald himself shooting Tippet. However, I do not believe that a random cop (who is not cruising in his usual "beat") happened to see Oswald looking suspicious, tried to stop him, and Oswald shoots him in a panic. Tippet's actions leading up to his death lead me to the theory that he was not an innocent himself; and that he was involved, at least compartmentally in the post assassination scenario, and was following orders to find Oswald for more than just an arrest. Perhaps they even knew each other. It is possible that, in Oswald's mind, shooting Tippet was literally (as in kill or be killed) an act of self-defense.

Oswald at the theater? I lean toward the theory: prearranged meeting that never happened; but it's possible he just picked it as a last minute attempt to lay low until he could figure out his next step. An early weekday matinee was not in his favor. Not many people to blend in with. Then again, eye witness reports of Oswald's actions after he arrived at the theater may suggest he was looking for someone.

Since there is no reasonable doubt it was a conspiracy of some kind (more than one shooter), who is behind it?  The evidence suggests factions of our own government via the C.I.A. decided at some point in 1963 that killing their own Commander in Chief, was vital, for a variety of reasons: the perception that JFK wanted to diminish the "Industrial Complex" i.e: make the USA weaker militarily; combined with his failure, in the last minute, to support the Cuban invasion against Castro...you all know the arguments. I do not believe it was mainly a Mafia hit, as some  theorize. But, underworld figures cooperated fully in aiding and abetting the plan. Their motives were obvious; Bobby Kennedy's crusade against them with his brother's support; not to mention their  business banishment from Castro's Cuba, with no help from JFK. And of course, the (factions of the) C.I.A. found it easy to recruit Cuban dissidents who hated JFK for what they believe was his abandonment at the Bay of Pigs. Many held him personally responsible for what turned out to be a slaughter.

As for the F.B.I.? Evidence suggests Oswald was a low level informant for them. The C.I.A. took advantage of this fact to manipulate Oswald in some way. Hoover and the Feds were only involved after the fact in a cover-up to save Bureau face; or more charitably, because, like Johnson felt, the Lone Nut Myth had to be perpetrated to avoid a possible war.

Other than the question of conspiracy, which I feel is settled, I am open to be persuaded on other areas, where I am not so certain. Let the journey continue...

Alan Dale

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Re: What Do You Believe?
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2013, 03:46:38 pm »
^ Excellent post. Thank you for joining us in this journey of careful and thoughtful consideration.

Very glad you're here and participating.
Our future may lie beyond our vision, but it is not completely beyond our control. It is the shaping impulse of America that neither fate nor nature nor the irresistible tides of history, but the work of our own hands, matched to reason and principle, that will determine our destiny.

RFK

YellowBirch1

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Re: What Do You Believe?
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2013, 12:07:48 am »

Other than the question of conspiracy, which I feel is settled, I am open to be persuaded on other areas, where I am not so certain. Let the journey continue...

It is the evidence as it has been shaped for our knowledge which makes all of this so difficult to understand. What the evidence was is not what it is now thus the case cannot be made sense of.

Tim Weaver

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Re: What Do You Believe?
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2013, 02:45:14 pm »
What I believe.....
I wish it was something I could put into a few sentences. I believe LHO was certainly involved. I believe it is possible that he did it all by himself as well, but also believe its likely that others were involved. I believe that the majority of any conspiracy took place after JFK was assassinated rather than before.
I believe there were far too many statement revisions and simple mistakes....and I believe that they werent simply mistakes. I believe that the waters have been so muddied that even if actual proof did emerge very few would recognize it as proof at all.

I am more of a reader than a talker. More is learned that way, at least in my experience. :)



piopat

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Re: What Do You Believe?
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2013, 11:31:58 am »
I have to agree with yellowbirch that the evidence as we know it has been shaped , shaped to fit a pre conceived version of events and shaped to convince the public that Oswald and Oswald alone was the guilty party in both crimes .

I think what came out in the first few hours was probably as near to the truth as we will get ,but even that leaves a lot of un answered questions . its difficult to be sure of exactly what occurred that day but im convinced that it involves a lot more than just lee oswald.

I believe one of the intentions that day was to leave evidence of conspiracy , if the object was war against castro etc then I doubt framing a so called loner nut would be any use to the conspiritors . in my view the lone nut scenario was designed to difuse a dangerous situation and Oswald the patsy was used to avoid a proper investigation . .

I don't think for a second that Weitzman was wrong about the rifle I believe it was a mauser , he knew weapons quite well and well enough that boone believed him and wrote down mauser on his affidavit aswell ,Weitzman  saw the rifle up close and gave a a very detailed description and so detailed

Tim Weaver

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Re: What Do You Believe?
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2013, 01:15:32 pm »
Not that I am arguing....but of they deliberatly left evidence of a conspiracy in order to gain public support for a raid on Cuba, why didnt we invade Cuba?

piopat

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Re: What Do You Believe?
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2013, 01:16:16 pm »
sorry im having a problem posting .

the description was so detailed even down to the texture of the wood that it makes a joke of his I ONLY SAW IT AT A GLANCE comment which our LN friends like to use so much . I think there was probably two weapons found , one at about 1.06 and another at about 1.20 or the mauser was switched for the carcano . I think the conspiritors wanted it to look like a conspiracy and the various government agencies had to make it look like there was no conspiracy . that's what I think , am I right ? I don't know but that's what I feel .

I also feel that Oswald knew some thing , but id say he knew little but perhaps he thought there would be a staged event that day and maybe he was asked to help someone into the building via the back door  , upon hearing jfk had been shot at 12.30 he thought the plan had gone awry , unknown to him it had gone to plan .

in all likely hood he was driven all or part of the way to his rooming house , the only evidence that he was on the bus is a pristine transfer , its like ce399 its to pristine given the scuffle at the theatre . I think oswald Oswald left the rear door seen by frazier while the guy Oswald helped to access the building left via the front door seen by craig . Oswald gets home and gets changed and plans to go to the theatre , bringing a gun must mean he must have been meeting an unknown or someone he didn't trust ,the unknown doesnt show up but a fleet of police cars do .

Oswald may have been at the tippit murder scene about 1.10 but if he was I believe a second man was there .this is all speculation of course .

piopat

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Re: What Do You Believe?
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2013, 01:24:10 pm »
Not that I am arguing....but of they deliberatly left evidence of a conspiracy in order to gain public support for a raid on Cuba, why didnt we invade Cuba?

what ever evidence of conspiracy was there was removed or altered in favour of the lone nut scenario , just like any witness statement that could point to conspiracy was ignored , evidence that put Oswald on lower floors was ignored or witnesses were told they were wrong . they changed the original charge against Oswald which was that he killed jfk in the furtherance of an international communist conspiracy , they were never going to allow anything that pointed to a conspiracy only what pointed to their lone nut scenario . and they went beyond the ridiculous to do it by coming up with the ludicrous single bullet theory .

Tim Weaver

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Re: What Do You Believe?
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2013, 01:54:29 pm »
Ahhh......I get it.
Seems to me that there was maybe 2 conspiracies going on.
One to kill JFK and another one to cover up any tracks that proved a conspricay in the first place.

piopat

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Re: What Do You Believe?
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2013, 01:30:51 pm »
yes that's sort of what im saying ,but I would say one conspiracy and one cover up as opposed to two conspiracies .

our LN friends try to blur the two together to make one vast conspiracy which they say must have involved a cast of thousands , this is of course to make CT look silly . for example often I have seen LNs post saying CT THINK DR BOSWELL WAS A CONSPIRITOR , but I don't know of any CT that's ever claimed such a thing .

conspiracy and cover up are two different things , because a person for example dr boswell reluctantly agrees to go along with a cover up which would help avoid a war that doesn't make them a conspirator . so yes I feel there was a conspiracy which was quickly followed by a cover up .

Redfern

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Re: What Do You Believe?
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2013, 06:24:28 pm »
The plot was initiated by the Mafia and developed courtesy of the CIA-Cuban exile-Mafia nexus.

Kennedy's lack of action in returning Cuba to the exiles rankled and his attempts during the summer to establish some kind of diplomatic settlement possibly meant that the plot reached the point of no return. The Mafia hated the Kennedys regardless.

It suited the purposes of these three groups to kill Kennedy rather than Castro and blame a Communist, with the aim of instigating a US invasion of Cuba.

All this is hardly original and represents the most commonly held view among those who believe there was a conspiracy.

As time advanced and the plot came closer to Dallas, some of the groundwork was 'outsourced'. I see DPD as having a role in two murders that weekend and Jack Ruby's function was to liaise with corrupt, right-wing police officers.

I sense that security was deliberately stripped in Dealey Plaza and have always been suspicious of the two policemen on the overpass.

I also wonder if people like Fritz knew in advance what was going to happen.

The presence of James Powell and Stuart L Reed also suggests prescience among the military intelligence community.

The suspicious actions of several DPD patrolmen in Oak Cliff points to widespread foreknowledge.

The actions of several employees within the TSBD arouse deep suspicion, particularly Truly, Shelley and Dougherty. Could Shelley have been the man with the 'brown suit coat'? Dougherty helped the TSBD assassin escape by the west elevator in what was probably a pre-arranged move with Truly.

Oswald was on the first floor near a storage room and the 'lone nut' solution kicked in shortly after Baker filed his first affidavit. He was part of the plot, though.

There was panic in finding how Oswald could have returned to 1026 North Beckley other than by the station wagon on Elm Street, although Mary Bledsoe and William Whaley came to the rescue. I am sure both lied and the bus transfer was planted, as was just about all the physical evidence.

Oswald didn't kill Tippit and the wallet left at the scene was a crude attempt to frame him. Even Fritz didn't buy this.

The CIA framed Oswald, who may have been an inside informant for another security/intelligence agency.

I see at least one Cuban exile in DP (DCM), another (if not the same) driving a station wagon and possibly one in the car-park being handed something by the chap wearing a tan-jacket and seemingly fond of military about-turns - observers noticed a similar character during the protest against Adlai Stevenson.

The two men near the stairway leading to the car-park were also involved, I believe - their function would be to restrict access to the knoll and make sure someone like Emmet Hudson didn't go any further backwards. One may have been the man with 'dirty fingernails' flashing fake SS ID.

Walker's involved somewhere but I can't figure out just how - there were certainly links between him and anti-Castro Cubans.

I've always suspected that the rifle order and the BYPs were related to the so-called attempt on Walker's life and that Oswald was intended as the scapegoat. Was this plan aborted and resurrected with Kennedy the target?


The Tippit murder is confusing but thee intention was either to take Oswald out of Oak Cliff (perhaps by Carl Mather's car) and feign an 'escape' (although LHO would be killed) or simply to murder him before he reached the Texas Theater. I sense there was some kind of argument and Tippit was keeping an eye out for someone who was to meet him at 410 East Tenth.

The wallet was possibly originally meant to be found on a dead Oswald.

Tippit may simply have taken cold feet.


The main problem I have (and I've just spent over a week debating the case on a Scottish football (i.e., soccer) forum with two rather obtuse LNs) is that the conspiracy was so obvious - too obvious, in fact.

Did those behind it really think that no-one could work it out?


Mitz

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Re: What Do You Believe?
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2013, 12:21:01 pm »
I remember when Alan first started this topic back on JFKHISTORY.

I was unable to contribute anything meaningful back then and I find myself unable to contribute anything meaningful now.
I do not believe that we will ever truly know exactly what happened that day, and who was involved, and in what way.
The more I learn the less certain I become.

Having said that, there are two things of which I am as certain today as I was on the very first day I took an interest in this case.

JFK WAS MURDERED BY A CONSPIRACY.

THE CONSPIRACY THAT RESULTED IN THE DEATH OF JFK WAS COVERED UP.


I have seen nothing that would make me think otherwise.

I do believe that the assassination and the subsequent cover up were two different beasts. What I am unable to decide is whether or not the conspirators planned the assassination in such a way as to make the cover up a necessity and inevitable, or whether the cover up, ultimately, thwarted the true agenda of the conspiracy; an invasion of Cuba. Because different elements had different agendas - to answer this question we first need to know who was behind the conspiracy.  :o
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
    ~Andre Gide


Common sense is the least common of the senses.
    ~Unknown